Is geronimo dead?

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Is geronimo dead?

gmatej
Hello everyone and happy new year.

In the comapny where I am working we are slowly migrating our AS server
from GF to something different. Currently we are in a evaluation process.

What confuses us litlle with TomEE. Is the Geronimo status. Geronimo at
first looks more EE compliant an production ready then TomEE. It's also
based on Tomcat, and according to mailing lists I see the same people on
both projects. So I am a little confused, why was TomEE created in the
first place.

Will Geronimo and TomEE coexist,... Is IBM slowly abandoning Geronimo or
are they going back from their community version to Geronimo.

I know this are political questions, but it would be nice to have some of
the information before committing to a particular AS.


Best regards,

Matej
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Re: Is geronimo dead?

Jean-Louis MONTEIRO
Hi,

Thanks for posting. Your feeling is also maybe the same as other guys or
companies.
So better to ask and share.

TomEE is not Geronimo and Geronimo is not TomEE.
Both uses a subset Apache projects (OpenJPA, Tomcat, OpenEJB, etc).

But the approach, and the target is definitely not the same.
Geronimo is a full Java EE app server. It's been heavily supported by IBM
because Geronimo was the namely IBM Websphere AS Community Edition.
Geronimo is not dead. There is still community and committers, but that is
also right IMHO that Geronimo is not that active for a while. I'm not an
IBM employee so hard to say more, but maybe they decided to focus on the
commercial IBM Websphere AS instead of investing much on Geronimo itself.
FYI, IBM Websphere AS Commercial, also uses the same set of components more
or less.
And last important point for your company, no commercial support on top of
Geronimo as far as I know. Sometimes important for companies.

TomEE approach is totally different.
The first asset was Tomcat. Most of companies (more than 80 %) is using
Tomcat and is happy with it, cause it's simple, it's fast, easy to use and
administrate. So lots of them invested on it.
But, the other point is that almost all of them had more needs than just
Sevlet and JSP. So for a while, they have been developing and putting
libraries together (Hibernate for JPA, CXF for webservices, and Spring as a
glue or not) in order to fill the gap.
TomEE took advantage of Java EE 6 and the profiles creation to try building
something. TomEE was first focuses on the Web Profile that cuts by half the
amount of Java EE specification to just focus on the mostly used once.
Geronimo embeds Tomcat like it also embeds OpenJPA, OpenEJB, etc. TomEE is
just built on top of Tomcat which means that all the magic comes from the
integration, but at first glance, TomEE is Tomcat (With Java EE features).
Regarding the full Java EE profile, TomEE miss some parts (like CMP, Corba,
Jax-RPC - who still uses that :D ?). But we have more that just the web
profile. Check that page https://tomee.apache.org/comparison.html

Regarding Glassfish, the good news is that TomEE supports out of the box
glassfish descriptors.

So both will exists as long as people gets interested in and can dedicate
time.
Interesting point is that TomEE now has a company Tomitribe able to provide
support.


Hope that helps
Jean-Louis



2014/1/2 Matej <[hidden email]>

> Hello everyone and happy new year.
>
> In the comapny where I am working we are slowly migrating our AS server
> from GF to something different. Currently we are in a evaluation process.
>
> What confuses us litlle with TomEE. Is the Geronimo status. Geronimo at
> first looks more EE compliant an production ready then TomEE. It's also
> based on Tomcat, and according to mailing lists I see the same people on
> both projects. So I am a little confused, why was TomEE created in the
> first place.
>
> Will Geronimo and TomEE coexist,... Is IBM slowly abandoning Geronimo or
> are they going back from their community version to Geronimo.
>
> I know this are political questions, but it would be nice to have some of
> the information before committing to a particular AS.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Matej
>



--
Jean-Louis
   --
    Jean-Louis Monteiro
    http://twitter.com/jlouismonteiro
    http://www.tomitribe.com
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Re: Is geronimo dead?

smithh032772
+1 Jean-Louis,

On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 9:06 AM, Jean-Louis MONTEIRO <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Interesting point is that TomEE now has a company Tomitribe able to provide
> support.
>

and I knew Tomitribe would be mentioned in your response! I don't think
Geronimo is mentioned anytime...whenever Tomitribe is mentioned, but the
two were definitely mentioned together in this thread. :)

As I am happily-married to TomEE, I have seen (Apache) 'geronimo'
dependencies in (Apache) TomEE as well. The logs that i am having to put up
with, would love to get rid of (in my log), below.


Jan 02, 2014 7:20:30 AM org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext run
INFO: Removing non-required WorkContextHandler with no context:
org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.TransactionContextHandler@7abe2f60

Jan 02, 2014 7:20:30 AM org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext run
INFO: Removing non-required WorkContextHandler with no context:
org.apache.openejb.core.security.SecurityContextHandler@5c188694

Jan 02, 2014 7:20:30 AM org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext run
INFO: Removing non-required WorkContextHandler with no context:
org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.HintsContextHandler@d696d90
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Re: Is geronimo dead?

karlkilden
Yay for TomEE!

Regarding the logging, my advice would be to change the relevant log level
to warn. For example I use Log4j 1.2 and do all my configuration
programmatically and I have this:


Logger.getLogger("org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext").setLevel(Level.WARN);

Can't remember if it was JUL or SLF4J. I have bridged JUL to SLF4J but for
JUL it would be:
java.util.logging.Logger.getLogger("org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext").setLevel(java.util.logging.Level.WARNING);




On 2 January 2014 15:58, Howard W. Smith, Jr. <[hidden email]>wrote:

> +1 Jean-Louis,
>
> On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 9:06 AM, Jean-Louis MONTEIRO <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > Interesting point is that TomEE now has a company Tomitribe able to
> provide
> > support.
> >
>
> and I knew Tomitribe would be mentioned in your response! I don't think
> Geronimo is mentioned anytime...whenever Tomitribe is mentioned, but the
> two were definitely mentioned together in this thread. :)
>
> As I am happily-married to TomEE, I have seen (Apache) 'geronimo'
> dependencies in (Apache) TomEE as well. The logs that i am having to put up
> with, would love to get rid of (in my log), below.
>
>
> Jan 02, 2014 7:20:30 AM org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext
> run
> INFO: Removing non-required WorkContextHandler with no context:
> org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.TransactionContextHandler@7abe2f60
>
> Jan 02, 2014 7:20:30 AM org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext
> run
> INFO: Removing non-required WorkContextHandler with no context:
> org.apache.openejb.core.security.SecurityContextHandler@5c188694
>
> Jan 02, 2014 7:20:30 AM org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext
> run
> INFO: Removing non-required WorkContextHandler with no context:
> org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.HintsContextHandler@d696d90
>
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Re: Is geronimo dead?

smithh032772
wow, thanks Karl! I will have to try that...and I wish I knew that earlier.
i have never manipulated logger lines like that before. :)



On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Karl Kildén <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yay for TomEE!
>
> Regarding the logging, my advice would be to change the relevant log level
> to warn. For example I use Log4j 1.2 and do all my configuration
> programmatically and I have this:
>
>
>
> Logger.getLogger("org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext").setLevel(Level.WARN);
>
> Can't remember if it was JUL or SLF4J. I have bridged JUL to SLF4J but for
> JUL it would be:
>
> java.util.logging.Logger.getLogger("org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext").setLevel(java.util.logging.Level.WARNING);
>
>
>
>
> On 2 January 2014 15:58, Howard W. Smith, Jr. <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > +1 Jean-Louis,
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 9:06 AM, Jean-Louis MONTEIRO <[hidden email]
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Interesting point is that TomEE now has a company Tomitribe able to
> > provide
> > > support.
> > >
> >
> > and I knew Tomitribe would be mentioned in your response! I don't think
> > Geronimo is mentioned anytime...whenever Tomitribe is mentioned, but the
> > two were definitely mentioned together in this thread. :)
> >
> > As I am happily-married to TomEE, I have seen (Apache) 'geronimo'
> > dependencies in (Apache) TomEE as well. The logs that i am having to put
> up
> > with, would love to get rid of (in my log), below.
> >
> >
> > Jan 02, 2014 7:20:30 AM org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext
> > run
> > INFO: Removing non-required WorkContextHandler with no context:
> > org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.TransactionContextHandler@7abe2f60
> >
> > Jan 02, 2014 7:20:30 AM org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext
> > run
> > INFO: Removing non-required WorkContextHandler with no context:
> > org.apache.openejb.core.security.SecurityContextHandler@5c188694
> >
> > Jan 02, 2014 7:20:30 AM org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext
> > run
> > INFO: Removing non-required WorkContextHandler with no context:
> > org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.HintsContextHandler@d696d90
> >
>
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Re: Is geronimo dead?

Romain Manni-Bucau
@Howard and Karl: it can be done through logging.properties of course

@Matej: for an enterprise TomEE would be a better choice since
Tomitribe is behind now and Geronimo is quite alone. About the
products TomEE aims to bring to Tomcat missing EE features, Geronimo
is built on top of Tomcat but using tomcat as a library so the tomcat
spirit is totally lost.
Romain Manni-Bucau
Twitter: @rmannibucau
Blog: http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com/
LinkedIn: http://fr.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau
Github: https://github.com/rmannibucau



2014/1/2 Howard W. Smith, Jr. <[hidden email]>:

> wow, thanks Karl! I will have to try that...and I wish I knew that earlier.
> i have never manipulated logger lines like that before. :)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 10:06 AM, Karl Kildén <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Yay for TomEE!
>>
>> Regarding the logging, my advice would be to change the relevant log level
>> to warn. For example I use Log4j 1.2 and do all my configuration
>> programmatically and I have this:
>>
>>
>>
>> Logger.getLogger("org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext").setLevel(Level.WARN);
>>
>> Can't remember if it was JUL or SLF4J. I have bridged JUL to SLF4J but for
>> JUL it would be:
>>
>> java.util.logging.Logger.getLogger("org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext").setLevel(java.util.logging.Level.WARNING);
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2 January 2014 15:58, Howard W. Smith, Jr. <[hidden email]
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > +1 Jean-Louis,
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 9:06 AM, Jean-Louis MONTEIRO <[hidden email]
>> > >wrote:
>> >
>> > > Interesting point is that TomEE now has a company Tomitribe able to
>> > provide
>> > > support.
>> > >
>> >
>> > and I knew Tomitribe would be mentioned in your response! I don't think
>> > Geronimo is mentioned anytime...whenever Tomitribe is mentioned, but the
>> > two were definitely mentioned together in this thread. :)
>> >
>> > As I am happily-married to TomEE, I have seen (Apache) 'geronimo'
>> > dependencies in (Apache) TomEE as well. The logs that i am having to put
>> up
>> > with, would love to get rid of (in my log), below.
>> >
>> >
>> > Jan 02, 2014 7:20:30 AM org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext
>> > run
>> > INFO: Removing non-required WorkContextHandler with no context:
>> > org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.TransactionContextHandler@7abe2f60
>> >
>> > Jan 02, 2014 7:20:30 AM org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext
>> > run
>> > INFO: Removing non-required WorkContextHandler with no context:
>> > org.apache.openejb.core.security.SecurityContextHandler@5c188694
>> >
>> > Jan 02, 2014 7:20:30 AM org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.WorkerContext
>> > run
>> > INFO: Removing non-required WorkContextHandler with no context:
>> > org.apache.geronimo.connector.work.HintsContextHandler@d696d90
>> >
>>
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Re: Is geronimo dead?

Bjorn Danielsson
In reply to this post by gmatej
My perception of TomEE is that it is a lot easier to configure than
any other Java EE server. I guess this is a benefit from its OpenEJB
roots. I have run OpenEJB alongside other Java application servers on
the same VM, and I have installed TomEE on things like Raspberry Pi.
Never seen anything so flexible.

Happy new year to everyone :)

--
Bjorn Danielsson
Cuspy Code AB


Matej <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello everyone and happy new year.
>
> In the comapny where I am working we are slowly migrating our AS server
> from GF to something different. Currently we are in a evaluation process.
>
> What confuses us litlle with TomEE. Is the Geronimo status. Geronimo at
> first looks more EE compliant an production ready then TomEE. It's also
> based on Tomcat, and according to mailing lists I see the same people on
> both projects. So I am a little confused, why was TomEE created in the
> first place.
>
> Will Geronimo and TomEE coexist,... Is IBM slowly abandoning Geronimo or
> are they going back from their community version to Geronimo.
>
> I know this are political questions, but it would be nice to have some of
> the information before committing to a particular AS.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Matej
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Re: Is geronimo dead?

smithh032772
+1 Bjorn

i don't have experience with openEJB 'without' TomEE+, but I downloaded
Geronimo  (and even JBOSS) and tried to use it...when I was migrating from
Glassfish to Tomcat/TomEE. As you said, TomEE was the easiest, and TomEE
committers allowed me to be successful with the migration from Glassfish to
TomEE.

i love tomee!



On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Bjorn Danielsson <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> My perception of TomEE is that it is a lot easier to configure than
> any other Java EE server. I guess this is a benefit from its OpenEJB
> roots. I have run OpenEJB alongside other Java application servers on
> the same VM, and I have installed TomEE on things like Raspberry Pi.
> Never seen anything so flexible.
>
> Happy new year to everyone :)
>
> --
> Bjorn Danielsson
> Cuspy Code AB
>
>
> Matej <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hello everyone and happy new year.
> >
> > In the comapny where I am working we are slowly migrating our AS server
> > from GF to something different. Currently we are in a evaluation process.
> >
> > What confuses us litlle with TomEE. Is the Geronimo status. Geronimo at
> > first looks more EE compliant an production ready then TomEE. It's also
> > based on Tomcat, and according to mailing lists I see the same people on
> > both projects. So I am a little confused, why was TomEE created in the
> > first place.
> >
> > Will Geronimo and TomEE coexist,... Is IBM slowly abandoning Geronimo or
> > are they going back from their community version to Geronimo.
> >
> > I know this are political questions, but it would be nice to have some of
> > the information before committing to a particular AS.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Matej
>
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Re: Is geronimo dead?

gmatej
Thank you everyone for answers. I am/was already sold on TomEE, I like the
whole concept and the community!

I was just inteested in the Geronimo status. Because TomEE uses allot of
Geronimo/IBM components(openjpa). Now that IBM seems to slowly stop
involvement I was a little afraid how this will affect TomEE and Apache JEE
components in the long run. Jboss/Oracle are pushing hard with JEE7,
already planning 8. And OpenJPA still discussing if to implement JPA 2.1,
which is a litlle worrying. Does every component has to come from Apache?:)

BR,

Matej


2014/1/2 Howard W. Smith, Jr. <[hidden email]>

> +1 Bjorn
>
> i don't have experience with openEJB 'without' TomEE+, but I downloaded
> Geronimo  (and even JBOSS) and tried to use it...when I was migrating from
> Glassfish to Tomcat/TomEE. As you said, TomEE was the easiest, and TomEE
> committers allowed me to be successful with the migration from Glassfish to
> TomEE.
>
> i love tomee!
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Bjorn Danielsson <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > My perception of TomEE is that it is a lot easier to configure than
> > any other Java EE server. I guess this is a benefit from its OpenEJB
> > roots. I have run OpenEJB alongside other Java application servers on
> > the same VM, and I have installed TomEE on things like Raspberry Pi.
> > Never seen anything so flexible.
> >
> > Happy new year to everyone :)
> >
> > --
> > Bjorn Danielsson
> > Cuspy Code AB
> >
> >
> > Matej <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Hello everyone and happy new year.
> > >
> > > In the comapny where I am working we are slowly migrating our AS server
> > > from GF to something different. Currently we are in a evaluation
> process.
> > >
> > > What confuses us litlle with TomEE. Is the Geronimo status. Geronimo at
> > > first looks more EE compliant an production ready then TomEE. It's also
> > > based on Tomcat, and according to mailing lists I see the same people
> on
> > > both projects. So I am a little confused, why was TomEE created in the
> > > first place.
> > >
> > > Will Geronimo and TomEE coexist,... Is IBM slowly abandoning Geronimo
> or
> > > are they going back from their community version to Geronimo.
> > >
> > > I know this are political questions, but it would be nice to have some
> of
> > > the information before committing to a particular AS.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Matej
> >
>
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Re: Is geronimo dead?

Romain Manni-Bucau
components needs to get a compatible license...but an apache product
WILL implement jpa 2.1 for sure, if not openjpa I"m sure some guys
will be happy to fork it @apache and let openjpa die but I'm pretty
sure too it will not be needed and openjpa will impl it. Think it is
more a time issue ATM than anything else. The rush for EE 7 already
started even @ apache but slower than jboss/oracle since we are few to
be paid for it (are there in fact ATM?).
Romain Manni-Bucau
Twitter: @rmannibucau
Blog: http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com/
LinkedIn: http://fr.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau
Github: https://github.com/rmannibucau



2014/1/3 Matej <[hidden email]>:

> Thank you everyone for answers. I am/was already sold on TomEE, I like the
> whole concept and the community!
>
> I was just inteested in the Geronimo status. Because TomEE uses allot of
> Geronimo/IBM components(openjpa). Now that IBM seems to slowly stop
> involvement I was a little afraid how this will affect TomEE and Apache JEE
> components in the long run. Jboss/Oracle are pushing hard with JEE7,
> already planning 8. And OpenJPA still discussing if to implement JPA 2.1,
> which is a litlle worrying. Does every component has to come from Apache?:)
>
> BR,
>
> Matej
>
>
> 2014/1/2 Howard W. Smith, Jr. <[hidden email]>
>
>> +1 Bjorn
>>
>> i don't have experience with openEJB 'without' TomEE+, but I downloaded
>> Geronimo  (and even JBOSS) and tried to use it...when I was migrating from
>> Glassfish to Tomcat/TomEE. As you said, TomEE was the easiest, and TomEE
>> committers allowed me to be successful with the migration from Glassfish to
>> TomEE.
>>
>> i love tomee!
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Bjorn Danielsson <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > My perception of TomEE is that it is a lot easier to configure than
>> > any other Java EE server. I guess this is a benefit from its OpenEJB
>> > roots. I have run OpenEJB alongside other Java application servers on
>> > the same VM, and I have installed TomEE on things like Raspberry Pi.
>> > Never seen anything so flexible.
>> >
>> > Happy new year to everyone :)
>> >
>> > --
>> > Bjorn Danielsson
>> > Cuspy Code AB
>> >
>> >
>> > Matej <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > Hello everyone and happy new year.
>> > >
>> > > In the comapny where I am working we are slowly migrating our AS server
>> > > from GF to something different. Currently we are in a evaluation
>> process.
>> > >
>> > > What confuses us litlle with TomEE. Is the Geronimo status. Geronimo at
>> > > first looks more EE compliant an production ready then TomEE. It's also
>> > > based on Tomcat, and according to mailing lists I see the same people
>> on
>> > > both projects. So I am a little confused, why was TomEE created in the
>> > > first place.
>> > >
>> > > Will Geronimo and TomEE coexist,... Is IBM slowly abandoning Geronimo
>> or
>> > > are they going back from their community version to Geronimo.
>> > >
>> > > I know this are political questions, but it would be nice to have some
>> of
>> > > the information before committing to a particular AS.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Best regards,
>> > >
>> > > Matej
>> >
>>
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Re: Is geronimo dead?

gmatej
Nice to hear. Thanks Romain for quick response again!

BR,

Matej


2014/1/3 Romain Manni-Bucau <[hidden email]>

> components needs to get a compatible license...but an apache product
> WILL implement jpa 2.1 for sure, if not openjpa I"m sure some guys
> will be happy to fork it @apache and let openjpa die but I'm pretty
> sure too it will not be needed and openjpa will impl it. Think it is
> more a time issue ATM than anything else. The rush for EE 7 already
> started even @ apache but slower than jboss/oracle since we are few to
> be paid for it (are there in fact ATM?).
> Romain Manni-Bucau
> Twitter: @rmannibucau
> Blog: http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com/
> LinkedIn: http://fr.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau
> Github: https://github.com/rmannibucau
>
>
>
> 2014/1/3 Matej <[hidden email]>:
> > Thank you everyone for answers. I am/was already sold on TomEE, I like
> the
> > whole concept and the community!
> >
> > I was just inteested in the Geronimo status. Because TomEE uses allot of
> > Geronimo/IBM components(openjpa). Now that IBM seems to slowly stop
> > involvement I was a little afraid how this will affect TomEE and Apache
> JEE
> > components in the long run. Jboss/Oracle are pushing hard with JEE7,
> > already planning 8. And OpenJPA still discussing if to implement JPA 2.1,
> > which is a litlle worrying. Does every component has to come from
> Apache?:)
> >
> > BR,
> >
> > Matej
> >
> >
> > 2014/1/2 Howard W. Smith, Jr. <[hidden email]>
> >
> >> +1 Bjorn
> >>
> >> i don't have experience with openEJB 'without' TomEE+, but I downloaded
> >> Geronimo  (and even JBOSS) and tried to use it...when I was migrating
> from
> >> Glassfish to Tomcat/TomEE. As you said, TomEE was the easiest, and TomEE
> >> committers allowed me to be successful with the migration from
> Glassfish to
> >> TomEE.
> >>
> >> i love tomee!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Bjorn Danielsson <
> >> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > My perception of TomEE is that it is a lot easier to configure than
> >> > any other Java EE server. I guess this is a benefit from its OpenEJB
> >> > roots. I have run OpenEJB alongside other Java application servers on
> >> > the same VM, and I have installed TomEE on things like Raspberry Pi.
> >> > Never seen anything so flexible.
> >> >
> >> > Happy new year to everyone :)
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Bjorn Danielsson
> >> > Cuspy Code AB
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Matej <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > > Hello everyone and happy new year.
> >> > >
> >> > > In the comapny where I am working we are slowly migrating our AS
> server
> >> > > from GF to something different. Currently we are in a evaluation
> >> process.
> >> > >
> >> > > What confuses us litlle with TomEE. Is the Geronimo status.
> Geronimo at
> >> > > first looks more EE compliant an production ready then TomEE. It's
> also
> >> > > based on Tomcat, and according to mailing lists I see the same
> people
> >> on
> >> > > both projects. So I am a little confused, why was TomEE created in
> the
> >> > > first place.
> >> > >
> >> > > Will Geronimo and TomEE coexist,... Is IBM slowly abandoning
> Geronimo
> >> or
> >> > > are they going back from their community version to Geronimo.
> >> > >
> >> > > I know this are political questions, but it would be nice to have
> some
> >> of
> >> > > the information before committing to a particular AS.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Best regards,
> >> > >
> >> > > Matej
> >> >
> >>
>